In this blog we try to give some cultural references that we particularly appreciate. will try to give space to all thinkers, philosophers, sociologists, intellectuals who have given .... or are making a significant contribution to the elaboration of a thought that is proposed or a different world that stand out for analysis capabilities. ; After proposing an article by Zizek, today we offer an interview with the theory of decline, Serge Latouche, taken from the website: http://www.glialtrionline.it/home
Serge Latouche, "Less than GDP for all ..."
to Interview ' French economist and philosopher, theorist of the "decline"
Serge Latouche is a lanky and very kind gentleman who embodies with his theory of decline, linked to every possible imaginary "quality of life" which was conceived and advocated in recent decades. He did not and do not use the phone and traveling senza portatile, adopera la corrispondenza via mail ma solo a casa sua, a Parigi. È un economista, ma com’è noto “predica” l’uscita dall’economia che considera una categoria storica convenzionale costruita per parlare di fenomeni vissuti, e non un’essenza eterna ed immutabile. Dunque, contro ogni “principio” economico vede nella crescita il nemico dell’umanità. Molti lo giudicano un pazzo, soprattutto a sinistra; altri, sempre a sinistra, lo considerano un profeta. In realtà la sua teoria è molto meno immaginifica della vulgata ecologista, ha solide fondamenta economiche ma anche filosofiche e sociologiche e nel suo ultimo libro, Come si esce dalla società dei consumi (Bollati Boringhieri, pp. 192, euro 16), descrive percorsi che sono tutto sommato sensati e realistici e che non hanno molto in comune con l’idea di un ritorno bucolico a quella sorta di medioevo soggettivo che a volte si ritrova incarnato in alcuni suoi “seguaci”. Lo incontriamo a Ravenna, a margine del seminario organizzato dall’associazione Femminile Maschile Plurale in occasione dell’8 marzo, di cui parliamo più dettagliatamente nelle pagine del settimanale in edicola.
Professor Latouche, nel suo ultimo libro lei sembra alquanto soddisfatto della crisi economica che sembra confermare le sue predizioni. Però sui giornali leggiamo che ci sono segnali Shooting ...
No, I am convinced that growth is not over and never recover. But do not talk about the latest crisis. The growth ended in the seventies, more precisely in '75. Since then we have experienced a fake growth, artificial growth, through the magic of the head of the Fed, Greenspan. Of course, the indices of GDP continued to grow, but not welfare, not grown. We have experienced real growth between 1945 and 1975, a period that has brought real well in the homes of workers, but after the crisis of Fordism productivity is no longer grown as before, and environmental degradation has been so strong that you , alla fine del mese ai salariati toccava un salario più alto, ma le spese provocate dalla finta crescita erano sempre più forti dei benefici. Per questo dico che da allora è stata una crescita fittizia. Un po’ come la luce che ancora vediamo, ma che proviene da stelle spente. Dall’agosto 2007, dalla cosiddetta crisi dei subprime, dopo il 16 settembre 2008 e il fallimento della Lehman Brothers, non si può più nascondere il fatto che viviamo in una società della crescita senza crescita.
I governi hanno tentato di tutto per salvare la situazione…
Già, hanno speso ventiquattromila miliardi di dollari per salvare il sistema finanziario, un terzo del Pil mondiale, una cosa gigantesca, fatta da governi che non trovano cento milioni di dollari per salvare lo stato sociale, la scuola, la sanità. Ma sono interventi che se pure massicci, creano una finta ripresa: la speculazione immobiliare è ripresa, la speculazione nelle borse è ricominciata, ma durerà poco ed è molto, molto fragile. Del resto, il prezzo del barile di petrolio è già salito moltissimo.
La situazione mediorientale non aiuta. Era prevedibile l’esplodere delle rivolte nel Maghreb e ora in Libia?
La situazione mediorientale era oggettivamente esplosiva ed è esplosa, ma non è questo che ha grandi effetti sulla crisi economica. Anche la situazione in Libia non costituisce un grande problem, Libya is the largest oil producer, is an accidental effect is not particularly significant.
The crisis is still an opportunity for reflection. It may be that incentive to consider more carefully the reasons for the decline?
I do not think. The opportunity to think out there, there have been over the decades. At that point we can say that we are obliged to fall? In my opinion, this point was passed long ago. But we have a great ability to hide things, to do the ostrich policy.
In his latest book, she says you have to subtract the money to the banks, and talks about the experiences of small communities that have embraced the theory and practice of decrease, the reunited ideally with experience of English utopians such as those told by William Morris' News from Nowhere. " She describes as "his" utopia decrease. But perhaps there is more need of political utopia.
But politics does not make sense without utopia! Socialism for two centuries has been a utopia but has had political effects, fed election programs. It continues to do so.
Socialism has made terrible effects produced and killed freedom ...
Yes, this happened in the East but socialism has also been made by us, in the social democracies of northern Europe, a model in the European left has yet to nostalgia. I certainly do not enhance those experiences, those were also the consumer society because they had accepted the capitalist system and the pervasiveness of the market. I just wanted to say that utopia of socialism has been partially achieved, produced the programs, not always good, but for Europe also had positive effects. For me the design of the decline is a real utopia. I've said before: no utopia policy would not make sense, we need to have a prospect of change. In my next book I make a distinction between myth e utopia. Definisco il mito come una cosa irrealistica, che può essere strumentalizzato a fini negativi: il mito della razza, per esempio, utilizzato dal nazismo, ma anche i miti del socialismo, penso a George Sorel, al mito dello sciopero generale… Il mito è pericoloso perché serve a manipolare le persone. L’utopia della società della decrescita si fonda su dati che possono farla funzionare. Se la vogliamo, quest’altra società è possibile. Naturalmente dobbiamo volerla, non sono affatto sicuro che si realizzerà, ma non è un’idea astratta e impossibile da concretizzare e può servire da guida per la politica, ad esempio, per costruire un programma politico per le prossime elezioni.
How can you "recovery" of money?
is a specific phase of the company's decline. It's hard to think but not to achieve small levels and running already. There are a lot of local currencies that work well. In Switzerland there is wir that is used between contractors, is an alternative currency. At the level of local exchanges there are several. Even in Italy, Aspromonte in the park when he was chairman Tonino Perna, there was the ' ecoaspromonte , a local currency for the park. Argentina, after the peso crisis, has survived thanks to local currencies. I say that money is a common thing, a very important thing that you should not be left to bankers. You must remove it from banks, finance, and return to society through the action of local authorities.
The decrease is related to ecology, but ecology often start diktat illiberal.
Ecology is both a science and a political movement. Scientists think they know the truth and when someone thinks he knows the truth there is no room for democracy. It is a wrong way, even if there is an important part of scientific ecology, because the issue is not it comes to saving the planet, the planet will save itself alone, it is about saving humanity. And to save humanity must ask people to participate in a project if they so choose. You can not force them. Men may prefer to commit suicide. In the meetings that I do around Europe it often happens that someone says, but no, we go on like this until the end, everything we consume and goodnight. We can not save humanity against his desire to commit suicide. The problem, in my opinion, is that consumption does not make us all happy: this is the most important dimension is the starting point of the project of decrease that to me is more important than size ecologist. But even if mine is a strong belief we are facing a phenomenon of drug addiction. The consumer is an addict of the consumer society, can know that is not good but can not do otherwise. It is a drug problem, and there are two actors. The traffickers, the big corporations that make profits and do not want to give up, and drug addicts, we, who are simultaneously victims and accomplices. Only under severe threat will undertake a cure.
We need a shock. According to her the economic crisis is not enough?
The crisis was a shock, but I think only the last four years: the crisis is not only financial and economic crisis is ecological, crisi sociale, crisi culturale: siamo in verità all’inizio di una crisi di civiltà. Nella storia occidentale abbiamo solo un esempio, molto complicato, che è la caduta dell’impero romano, il passaggio alla società cristiana. Ma questo processo si è svolto in tre-quattro secoli, forse di più. La nostra crisi di civiltà inizia negli anni Settanta, come dicevo, e oggi è già palpabile; comunque sarà molto più veloce perché in un modo o nell’altro ne usciremo prima del 2050, quando si stima che avverrà l’esaurimento delle risorse energetiche fossili.
Se questa che viviamo è una crisi di civiltà, dobbiamo aspettarci un lungo periodo di barbarie?
But the new barbarism is already here. They are called Berlusconi, Sarkozy, Marchionne ... We understand that barbarism can get worse, it may expel more immigrants, deporting more Roma make more semi-slave laborers, and so on, and this probably will happen in very little. There are one hundred thousand Egyptian press outside of Italy. What will the Italian government? Concentration camps, I guess. This is called barbarism, or not? So we are faced with a choice: either the barbarity, or the company's decline. I call it as a frugal society of abundance, it seems a paradox but it is not. If we understand that ours is a society of but the frustration, we also understand that the only opportunity to create wealth is thrift. If we restrict all our needs then we can satisfy them, and this is mathematically possible.
How can one talk of decline and the workers laid off workers who want to work and therefore the development?
must explain to them that is not true that the development produces work. Is not the development that creates jobs. The development was the solution to the crisis of the postwar period to allow profits to increase wages and so too, but all this is over. We must find a way out because there will be a return to work, become a scarce resource and we must share it. Less work all work and basic income. We must put pressure on the states through political programs. We must seek to reduce the working hours to provide jobs for all and raise taxes on financial profits, because we got to the huge levels of inequality. This has left the great responsibility he has accepted the paradigm of infinite progress without wondering where it would bring.
She speaks of the spirit of the gift within the project of decrease, as recognition of ecological debt, and gives it a first philosophy, that of being. What do you mean?
I mean that we live in a world abounding in natural means of subsistence, but were commodification, they have been established for the convenience of the scarcity of the scarce and it was also decided not to consider the other side of commodity production, ie waste , pollution, disruption of ecosystems. So the company has shown growth of "forgetting" to be. Denied our situation in a world that is generous and limited at the same time. It is as if negassimo our human condition. In my idea of \u200b\u200bdecline is the spirit of giving in social relations as a reminder of what the Greeks was the caritas the philia, mentioned by Marcel Mauss. This friendship, this community. Concepts necessary to avert the destructive drive of any democratic society.
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